A Christian Atheist?

8 responses to “A Christian Atheist?”

  1. that no miracle can be shown to have ever happened is a problem for christians. Especially when your bible has jesus promising that his true followers will be able to get any prayer answered and to do miracles just like him, including healing.

    1. Every generation both doubts and proves miracles. I realize, from your comment, that you dismiss all the miracles that are testified to in the Bible, the writings of the early church, and the Christians down through history. That means that you are wanting examples of miracles happening today. I will put a couple of online articles about miracles at the end of this response, but let me just share that I have experienced God healing individuals many times during my 30 plus years in ministry. “My Bible” does not say that His true follower will be able to get any prayer answered (implied – the way we want it answered). It does say that He will answer, but the full Scripture teaches that God answers the prayers of His people according to the glory of His will. So, this means that there is a larger plan at work than our immediate needs. When, how, and why God answers our prayers in the way He does is a much larger conversation about God’s will, God’s unfolding plan, God’s sovereignty, God’s glory, as well as our discipleship.

      Let me say – thank you for your contribution to the discussion about prayer and miracles. God is at work. He does answer prayers. He still does miracles.

      In Christ,
      Pastor John

      articles: https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2022/january-web-only/craig-keener-miracles-today-supernatural-god.html & https://www.joeledmundanderson.com/miracles-by-craig-keener-a-book-review-and-some-personal-reflections/
      * Yes, both articles are about the same book – one by the author and one by a reader of the book.

      1. Unsurprisnigly, not a single generation has shown that miracles occur, including yours and including you.

        The claims in the bible are baseless, and no more supported than any other miracle claimed by any other religion. Claims aren’t evidence for themselves. Since you have no evidence that any essential event in the bible happened, including these supposed “miracles”, you have nothing.

        All you have, John, are the same things you claim aren’t true from other religions. Appeals to tradition, and appeals to testimony all fail.

        No evidence for miracles happening every, much less today. Despiteyour claims you have no evidence for any healing from your god. Curious how every pastor, priest, etc can’t show any medical records, etc, and this god never can heal any visible illness or injury. Funny how that works out, John. Not one of your miracles ever happens to an amputee, a burn victim, someone who has visible tumors, etc. That’s quite a sign of fraud.

        Your bible does have jesus promising exactly what I indicated. How about we look at those verses?

        “22 Jesus answered them, ‘Have[b] faith in God. 23 Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, “Be taken up and thrown into the sea”, and if you do not doubt in your heart, but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you. 24 So I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received[c] it, and it will be yours.” – Mark 11

        “Go into all the world and proclaim the good news[d] to the whole creation. 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes in their hands,[e] and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.’” Mark 16

        “7 ‘Ask, and it will be given to you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? 10 Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!” Matthew 7

        “1 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if you do not, then believe me because of the works themselves. 12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me[e] for anything, I will do it.” John 14

        “ 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. “ John 15

        “13 Are any among you suffering? They should pray. Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise. 14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. 17 Elijah was a human being like us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain and the earth yielded its harvest.” James 5

        So doesn’t your bible have these verses in it? You offer the usual excuses for yoru god doing nothing, inventing claims that this god doesn’t have to answer prayers as said, and contradicting your bible.

        The full scripture agrees with me, not you. You have to claim some imaginary “larger plan” to excuse your god’s failure. That your god, by your argument, needs to harm people for its plan indicates it is not what Christians claim at all.

        Funny how nothing shows your imaginary friend at work, since it does not answer prayers or does miracles.

        It’s no surprise you try to use Keener’s book. I do enjoy that Keener himself has admitted that he never actually confirmed any of these baseless claims. He simply accepted stories that agreed with his presuppositions. That makes this book completely worthless as evidence for your, and his, claims.

      2. Thanks again for your interaction with me. First and foremost, I am amazed that you seem to believe that many people, Christian or otherwise, would spend their time as historical scientists. Most of us are regular people who receive the testimony of those who have experienced miracles and we accept their testimony because we know them to be generally and specifically honest. We don’t ask for the type of verifiable or measurable proof because we do not need such to live our daily lives. We aren’t trying to prove anything to any scientific standard, we are just using the regular standard that life and our judicial system uses – the testimony of trustworthy witnesses.
        I appreciate that you have so many of the Scriptures on prayer at the ready. However, if you have done such a study, you certainly are also aware of the many times in the Scriptures where people did NOT have their prayers answered the way they wanted them to be answered. Yet, they did believe that God heard their prayers, was answering their prayers, and their faith was unmoved by God’s apparent “inaction”. Even the man you quoted prayed for a miracle and died believing that God had heard him and had answered him. I think that the way you treated the Scriptures you quoted is called “proof-texting”. You ignored the totality of what the Bible teaches about God’s interaction with people. Yet, I suspect you are aware of the more organic and full theology of suffering found in the Bible.
        My ultimate problem with your challenge regarding miracles is two-fold: 1) I believe that you are setting the evidence bar unrealistically high for historical facts. Personal testimony, the testimony of those who knew the person who experienced the miracle, and the testimony of enemies or the person who experienced the miracle have been used for centuries by historians to validate historical events. 2) I am not honestly convinced that you will accept ANY evidence of miracles, and so I wonder if such effort is worthwhile. Yes, Keener did not “confirm” the claims in the manner you would want him to; but that wasn’t really his goal, was it? He wanted to put forth a preponderance of evidence in order to encourage the believer and challenge the skeptic that it is not unreasonable to believe in miracles. Challenging, yes. Faith is challenging. That’s the way it is supposed to be.
        I know that I have still not presented you a miracle that fits all your criteria. That’s because I have not seen one yet. I have seen a person here and a person there healed of internal illnesses like cancer or other tumors. I have seen others receive miracles of financial help when they testified that they had told no one of their need. But, I never asked for x-rays or MRIs or an affidavit swearing that no one could have possibly have known that they had a monetary need. I didn’t need those things. I knew the people, and their testimony was enough for me.
        One last item – you made the side comment that equivalent miracles happen in religions that I believe are false. You betcha! My Bible also talks about false signs and wonders. Some of those signs and wonders are said to be so amazing that they could deceive even those who believe in Jesus. Other religions having miracles of a similar type to Christianity is nothing new. So it is not really a concern of mine.
        Again, let me thank you for your time in responding to my response. I always welcome the cordial exchange of thoughts and beliefs, even if the exchange is challenging. Take care!

      3. Curious how I never mentioned anyone being whatever a “historical scientist” is. Yep, you are regular people who accept the baseless claims from others since you are too lazy and too cowardly to look for yourselves. That’s how this nonsense keeps being passed along. You need to believe false stories to cling to the religion.

        Nothing shows your fellow Christians are trustworthy, nor does anything show your bible to be true. Unsurprisnigly, the judicial system uses evidence. You have none.

        I’m sure you aren’t quite as appreciative that I know the bible, since I can show how your claims fail. I’m curious, where in the bible does someone pray and not get the answer they wanted? Your stories of course don’t’ have people questioning, since your silly book is no more than propaganda for the religion.

        Yep, people can be stupid and die believing lies. That doesn’t make the lies true. I know what the totality of the bible is, since I’ve read it and I know that the books were never meant to be together. Your bible as I have demonstrated, repeatedly makes promises that fail and have to be excused by people like you. That the bible repeatedly contradicts itself by text and by event is nothing new.

        I’m sure you upset that I dare require evidence for your claims about miracles. The protests of an “unrealistically high bar” are amusing from someone who claims his god is omnipotent. Let me ask you: doyou accept personal testimony from other religions? I suspect not. Do produce this testimony you supposed have from “person who experienced the miracle, and the testimony of enemies or the person who experienced the miracle have been used for centuries by historians to validate historical events.”

        What I do know is this supposed evidence doesn’t exist. All you have are baseless claims with no evidence at all. Stories aren’t evidence. You offer a typical excuse that you want to claim I would accept no evidence so you don’t have to provide any. I would. Your problem is you have nothing but hearsay.

        As you agree, Keener did not check out any of those claims, which means they are also simply hearsay and worthless as evidence. And it’s not in a manner that I would require, anyone would who didn’t have a presupposition that those stories had to be true. It was evidently his goal to present these stories as facts given the title of the book. That you think you can argue otherwise is rather funny. This is the blurb about the book which literally says that miracles happen. He put forward no evidence as even you admit. It is not simply challenging to believe in miracles it is impossible since again, there is no evidence for them ever happening. Curious how per your own bible, faith isn’t challenging. Your god gives direct evidence and personal appearances. Now Christians have to insist that one has to believe blindly.

        Yep, you have presented nothing to support your claims, just like every other religion that fails to support their claims. You admit you hve never seen a miracle and that all you have is hearsay. As always, these miracles are never healing of anything visible. How convenient for frauds. You have seen people get money, and yet it didn’t magically appear, it was because of humans.

        Of course you never asked for evidence because if you do, you’ll find out that your religion is false. This is a particularly pernicious form of confirmation bias. You claim that other religions have “false signs and wonders”, and surprise your claims are no different from theirs.

      4. It is unfortunate that we can find no common ground. Since you seem to not appreciate my characterization of your point of view as demanding everyday people as being, “historical scientists” (and I am sure you DO know what I mean, despite your protest to the contrary); let me address the big points of your response to me. I will try to respond to direct quotes:
        You say, “Yep, you are regular people who accept the baseless claims from others since you are too lazy and too cowardly to look for yourselves.” That is not what I said. I said that I believe people that I trust. I think any honest person would do the same. I, too, am skeptical of strangers. I don’t base any of my beliefs in miracles today on those stories. You say, “Unsurprisingly, the judicial system uses evidence. You have none.” The judicial system uses testimony, doesn’t it? You repeatedly call what could be described as testimony, “hearsay.” Testimony and hearsay are not the same thing.
        You say, “I’m curious, where in the bible does someone pray and not get the answer they wanted?” There are several people who don’t get what they want in the Bible. King David did not receive the healing for his first son with Bathsheba that he wanted. Job did not get the answer to human suffering that he asked for. Jeremiah the prophet did not get the mercy from the wrath of God that he prayed for. The Apostle Paul did not get relief from the recurring debilitating condition that he prayed for. The Apostles in the Gospels did not see immediate healing in people that they tried to help. Jesus had to do it for them. Jesus was told “no” as He prayed in the garden. Beyond all these, both Jesus (and the Apostles who wrote letters to early believers) warned that suffering would be a part of life. That is hardly a blanket, “Christians can just get out of their problems by saying some magic words to God,” message.
        You say, “Do produce this testimony you supposed have from ‘person who experienced the miracle, and the testimony of enemies or the person who experienced the miracle have been used for centuries by historians to validate historical events.’” This is where I am positive that you don’t mean what you say. I am sure that you know of the documents that support the resurrection of Jesus. You know of the Gospels, the book of Acts, the letters of Paul, the Jewish historian Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, and the Talmud. Are you saying that you will now believe in the resurrection of Jesus?
        You say, “Curious how per your own bible, faith isn’t challenging.” This is just blatantly untrue.
        You say, “Of course you never asked for evidence because if you do, you’ll find out that your religion is false.” This and my comment immediately above are minor things. Of them I want to say – You and I don’t know each other. I would submit that your presuppositions and not anything you know about me (excepting that I believe in the Godhood and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth) are making you draw the conclusion that I am afraid (implied by this comment); lazy, cowardly, and perhaps even a fraud. I am not sure that jumping to those types of conclusions are helpful in honest discussions.
        One last thing that has NOTHING to do with our back and forth regarding miracles – Your comments, skepticism, and even hostility do not upset me. You are a person (in my faith) made in the image of God. How could I not hear your criticisms, receive them, and be willing to converse with you? You have not wounded me in any way, so anger directed at you could only come from my bruised ego. No bruising here. : ) BTW – If you are ever in central Iowa, you should come down to my coffee-shop. (one way my wife and I like to get to know our community) We could actually have a real conversation over coffee, tea, or a fruit-flavored slushie. Take care of yourself – John

      5. ROFL. Sorry, John, I don’t have to know what you mean since you can’t even explain what an “historical scientists” even are.

        Again, you trust people and accept what they say without doing any research yourself, since you want ot believe them. Honest people don’t blindly accept nonsense. You have no evidence for your claims, and evidently have not looked into miracles since all you have are “those stories”.

        Testimony and hearsay are the same thing in this case. Testimony requires a formal oath to be considered evidence. No theist makes this in their claims. Hearsay is “evidence based not on a witness’s personal knowledge but on another’s statement not made under oath” – merriam webster.
        You are right, there are places where prayer doesn’t get what the person wanted which goes against what jesus promises. And in the OT I suppose you may argue that this isn’t under Jesus, which can be a problem if jesus is this god. You do list quite the cases which I had hoped you would. This god kills David’s son for no reason, the child had nothing to do with what David did. It also contradicts what this god promises when in Ezekiel 18 it says it won’t punish the children of parents who sin. Job did not get an answer since his god is braggart and avoided the question. Jeremiah’s prayer wasn’t answered either and yep, Paul’s failed too. All of which contradict what jesus promises.

        The apostles did see immediate healing, per Acts. The nonsense in the garden isn’t even in all of the gospels and in John this jesus has no problem with going to the cross. Again, the bible repeatedly contradicts itself, it does indeed promise suffering and it does claim that this god will provide anything you need and that it will protest you from all enemies, the lilies speech and Psalm 91, among others.
        You need to lie and claim I don’t mean what I say since you can’t produce the evidence you calim to have. How convenient for you, John. I know of what christains claim as the documents that support jesus, and alas for you, they don’t. The books of the bible are the claims, they are not the evidence. Josephus mentions jesus, not that he was resurrected, and the bit in it about calling him a man is a well known forgery. Pliny mentions Christians, not jesus and only what they believe, not that what they believe is true. Paul can’t even keep his origin story straight. Tacitus also only mentions Christians, and not what they believed was true. The Talmud mentions a sorcerer who doesn’t match your jesus story at all.

        Not a single one of these claims is evidence for your resurrection nonsense.

        Faith isn’t challenging, one just needs to believe and not question. ROFL, I do love when a christain claims that asking for evidence is a ‘minor thing’ he doesn’t do. I know Christians quite well, having been one myself and knowing quite a few. You demonstrate your ignorance with your claims abut having evidence for your jesus. You have never read any counter apologetics nor have you questions your particular version of Christianity.

        I don’t jump to conclusions, I see all the evidence I need when Christians make such claims as yours.

        I don’t care if my comments upset you or not. Facts can’t be denied. I’m not made in the image of your imaginary friend, and christains can’t even agree on what that means. We can have a real conversation here, John, and my answers would still be the same to your baseless claims. You and eveyr other christain cannot so what the bible claims for jesus’ true followers. I have no need to believe in your claims.

  2. Thank you again for your ongoing dialogue with me. You have convinced me that your mind is closed. You have even demonstrated that what I believe offends you. I think I understand. It is not my desire to fight with you. I know that this will probably illicit more scoffing and mockery. I am okay with that too. I hope that your philosophy helps you when you need it.

    Take care,

    John

Leave a reply to clubschadenfreude Cancel reply